Stubborn MFers

[JollyRoger8]

We have a very important series with the Cubs to start the week and I see that Mlodzinski is still in the rotation to pitch on Wednesday. What else do they need to see that proves Mlodzinski is suited as a long reliever not a starter. Meanwhile you have Bubba Chandler on fire with an ERA of barely over 1
We need to win this series and we can’t afford to use up the bullpen with the Padres coming into town.

Speaking of the bullpen I think it is a bunch of BS saying certain pitchers are not available even when they may only have thrown 10 pitches or less the day before. These relief pitchers are way too babied.
Look up some of the great relievers of the past: Mike Marshall, Bruce Suter, Dennis Eckersley, Goose Gossage, Tekulve.
They would come in everytime there was a save opportunity regardless if they had pitched the day or 2 before.

[bucs607179]

I agree the relievers are babied.

Cubs + Padres = 6 nasty games. 2-4 if lucky

[Doc]

I'll agree that players are treated differently today than they were 40 years ago, but I think the reason is because of expansion. I just don't see there being enough major league-quality pitchers to fill the staffs of 30 teams. Complicating that problem is the reality that each team needs somewhere between five and 15 guys who can start a game over the course of a season, due to injuries mostly. Just look at the quality of guys the Pirates have to pull out of the minor leagues to fill-in for a game. Usually that guy has a rough time, as do most call-ups throughout the league.

It just goes to show how hard it is to succeed as a major league player. It's so difficult to bring a player up and have him play at least as well as the guy he replaces, particularly the pitchers. Sometimes they're asking the 10th best starter in the organization to take the place of the staff ace for a start or two. The difference between the two is too much to measure.

Add to this dilemma the strategy that teams are instructing their pitchers to throw as hard as they can, and/or to spin the ball as hard as they can. Human arms weren't meant to handle that kind of stress. So it seems the experts have determined that 100 pitches for starters, and no more than two consecutive outings for relievers, is the breaking point. Thus, we have what appears to be babying.

Back when there were 16, and even 24, teams, each with a four-man rotation, the supply of pitchers was greater, especially when the other professional sports weren't as popular, siphoning those best athletes into their industry. So if teams over-used a pitcher then, there were plenty others available. I don't think that's the case today, even though we have a larger population to draw from. With so few quality pitchers available, and with the amount of investment organizations have in these guys, it's no wonder they're treated with kid gloves.

[Bobster]

We have a very important series with the Cubs to start the week and I see that Mlodzinski is still in the rotation to pitch on Wednesday. What else do they need to see that proves Mlodzinski is suited as a long reliever not a starter. Meanwhile you have Bubba Chandler on fire with an ERA of barely over 1
We need to win this series and we can’t afford to use up the bullpen with the Padres coming into town.

Speaking of the bullpen I think it is a bunch of BS saying certain pitchers are not available even when they may only have thrown 10 pitches or less the day before. These relief pitchers are way too babied.
Look up some of the great relievers of the past: Mike Marshall, Bruce Suter, Dennis Eckersley, Goose Gossage, Tekulve.
They would come in everytime there was a save opportunity regardless if they had pitched the day or 2 before.

Not only that, but Marshall, Sutter, Gossage and Tekulve usually pitched multiple innings. These day few relievers exceed 75 innings. Gossage pitched 133 for the Bucs in 1977. Teke was routinely between 90 and 135 innings. Sutter was generally at 90-105 and went as high as 122 innings. In 1974, Marshall pitched 208 innings in relief after pitching 179 the previous year. Eckersley was the original "closer" in 1988 being reserved generally for 9th inning save opportunities and that formula was copied by every team and religiously adhered to ever since whether it makes sense or not.

Teams are overprotective of their pitchers' arms now for fear of injury. And yet we seem to see more pitchers getting injured now more than ever.

[bucs607179]

I'll agree that players are treated differently today than they were 40 years ago, but I think the reason is because of expansion. I just don't see there being enough major league-quality pitchers to fill the staffs of 30 teams. Complicating that problem is the reality that each team needs somewhere between five and 15 guys who can start a game over the course of a season, due to injuries mostly. Just look at the quality of guys the Pirates have to pull out of the minor leagues to fill-in for a game. Usually that guy has a rough time, as do most call-ups throughout the league.

It just goes to show how hard it is to succeed as a major league player. It's so difficult to bring a player up and have him play at least as well as the guy he replaces, particularly the pitchers. Sometimes they're asking the 10th best starter in the organization to take the place of the staff ace for a start or two. The difference between the two is too much to measure.

Add to this dilemma the strategy that teams are instructing their pitchers to throw as hard as they can, and/or to spin the ball as hard as they can. Human arms weren't meant to handle that kind of stress. So it seems the experts have determined that 100 pitches for starters, and no more than two consecutive outings for relievers, is the breaking point. Thus, we have what appears to be babying.

Back when there were 16, and even 24, teams, each with a four-man rotation, the supply of pitchers was greater, especially when the other professional sports weren't as popular, siphoning those best athletes into their industry. So if teams over-used a pitcher then, there were plenty others available. I don't think that's the case today, even though we have a larger population to draw from. With so few quality pitchers available, and with the amount of investment organizations have in these guys, it's no wonder they're treated with kid gloves.

So true. As my friend once said to me during an expansion, "Got another MLB team coming, that means 30 triple A players make the show".

[Surgnbuck]

Has all the look of BC and Shelton are here to stay for the entire season.

[JollyRoger8]

I'll agree that players are treated differently today than they were 40 years ago, but I think the reason is because of expansion. I just don't see there being enough major league-quality pitchers to fill the staffs of 30 teams. Complicating that problem is the reality that each team needs somewhere between five and 15 guys who can start a game over the course of a season, due to injuries mostly. Just look at the quality of guys the Pirates have to pull out of the minor leagues to fill-in for a game. Usually that guy has a rough time, as do most call-ups throughout the league.

It just goes to show how hard it is to succeed as a major league player. It's so difficult to bring a player up and have him play at least as well as the guy he replaces, particularly the pitchers. Sometimes they're asking the 10th best starter in the organization to take the place of the staff ace for a start or two. The difference between the two is too much to measure.

Add to this dilemma the strategy that teams are instructing their pitchers to throw as hard as they can, and/or to spin the ball as hard as they can. Human arms weren't meant to handle that kind of stress. So it seems the experts have determined that 100 pitches for starters, and no more than two consecutive outings for relievers, is the breaking point. Thus, we have what appears to be babying.

Back when there were 16, and even 24, teams, each with a four-man rotation, the supply of pitchers was greater, especially when the other professional sports weren't as popular, siphoning those best athletes into their industry. So if teams over-used a pitcher then, there were plenty others available. I don't think that's the case today, even though we have a larger population to draw from. With so few quality pitchers available, and with the amount of investment organizations have in these guys, it's no wonder they're treated with kid gloves.

So true. As my friend once said to me during an expansion, "Got another MLB team coming, that means 30 triple A players make the show".

Doc
You make a couple of good points with the increase in velocity and spin rates. I also agree with MLB losing some premier athletes to other sports.
However I do not agree that due to expansion and such that there are fewer MLB quality players available. I fact I would argue that there are more. Just look at the explosion of high quality players coming from Asia. More players coming from Latin countries than ever before. A lot of the best players in baseball come from foreign countries. Teams have invested in baseball academies in foreign countries. Even Australia and Africa are stating to produce players.
I still feel that today’s pitchers are under utilized and not built up to survive a 162 game schedule. I know that the value of these players and investments made makes management and the medical staff extremely cautious on the rehab process but the pendulum has swung to the way too cautious side.

[Doc]

I'll agree that players are treated differently today than they were 40 years ago, but I think the reason is because of expansion. I just don't see there being enough major league-quality pitchers to fill the staffs of 30 teams. Complicating that problem is the reality that each team needs somewhere between five and 15 guys who can start a game over the course of a season, due to injuries mostly. Just look at the quality of guys the Pirates have to pull out of the minor leagues to fill-in for a game. Usually that guy has a rough time, as do most call-ups throughout the league.

It just goes to show how hard it is to succeed as a major league player. It's so difficult to bring a player up and have him play at least as well as the guy he replaces, particularly the pitchers. Sometimes they're asking the 10th best starter in the organization to take the place of the staff ace for a start or two. The difference between the two is too much to measure.

Add to this dilemma the strategy that teams are instructing their pitchers to throw as hard as they can, and/or to spin the ball as hard as they can. Human arms weren't meant to handle that kind of stress. So it seems the experts have determined that 100 pitches for starters, and no more than two consecutive outings for relievers, is the breaking point. Thus, we have what appears to be babying.

Back when there were 16, and even 24, teams, each with a four-man rotation, the supply of pitchers was greater, especially when the other professional sports weren't as popular, siphoning those best athletes into their industry. So if teams over-used a pitcher then, there were plenty others available. I don't think that's the case today, even though we have a larger population to draw from. With so few quality pitchers available, and with the amount of investment organizations have in these guys, it's no wonder they're treated with kid gloves.

So true. As my friend once said to me during an expansion, "Got another MLB team coming, that means 30 triple A players make the show".

Doc
You make a couple of good points with the increase in velocity and spin rates. I also agree with MLB losing some premier athletes to other sports.
However I do not agree that due to expansion and such that there are fewer MLB quality players available. I fact I would argue that there are more. Just look at the explosion of high quality players coming from Asia. More players coming from Latin countries than ever before. A lot of the best players in baseball come from foreign countries. Teams have invested in baseball academies in foreign countries. Even Australia and Africa are stating to produce players.
I still feel that today’s pitchers are under utilized and not built up to survive a 162 game schedule. I know that the value of these players and investments made makes management and the medical staff extremely cautious on the rehab process but the pendulum has swung to the way too cautious side.

That's a fair point regarding more international players being available now, but I look at teams like the Pirates, Rockies, Marlins, and White Sox. This year, and what seems like most years, those teams haven't been competitive. Many of the players on those rosters couldn't find a job in Major League Baseball if their teams were contracted. I think the same case can be made for pitchers, particularly the starters.

Forty years ago and more, there were far fewer hitters in almost all the teams' line-ups who were batting .230 or lower. There are plenty of guys today, especially on the four worst teams, with a .200 or below average. Expansion has contributed to that in a way, also. Because of the way the schedule is now, some hitters and pitchers may not see each other more that once or twice in a season. It's become more difficult for a hitter to know how a pitcher will work to him, or for a pitcher to learn a hitter's weakness. Forty + years ago, these guys saw each other numerous times in a year and developed a history.

While expansion has been good in that it's brought the major leagues to far more cities and their fans, I'm not sure it's a better product than it was from 1920 to 1960.

[JollyRoger8]

So true. As my friend once said to me during an expansion, "Got another MLB team coming, that means 30 triple A players make the show".

Doc
You make a couple of good points with the increase in velocity and spin rates. I also agree with MLB losing some premier athletes to other sports.
However I do not agree that due to expansion and such that there are fewer MLB quality players available. I fact I would argue that there are more. Just look at the explosion of high quality players coming from Asia. More players coming from Latin countries than ever before. A lot of the best players in baseball come from foreign countries. Teams have invested in baseball academies in foreign countries. Even Australia and Africa are stating to produce players.
I still feel that today’s pitchers are under utilized and not built up to survive a 162 game schedule. I know that the value of these players and investments made makes management and the medical staff extremely cautious on the rehab process but the pendulum has swung to the way too cautious side.

That's a fair point regarding more international players being available now, but I look at teams like the Pirates, Rockies, Marlins, and White Sox. This year, and what seems like most years, those teams haven't been competitive. Many of the players on those rosters couldn't find a job in Major League Baseball if their teams were contracted. I think the same case can be made for pitchers, particularly the starters.

Forty years ago and more, there were far fewer hitters in almost all the teams' line-ups who were batting .230 or lower. There are plenty of guys today, especially on the four worst teams, with a .200 or below average. Expansion has contributed to that in a way, also. Because of the way the schedule is now, some hitters and pitchers may not see each other more that once or twice in a season. It's become more difficult for a hitter to know how a pitcher will work to him, or for a pitcher to learn a hitter's weakness. Forty + years ago, these guys saw each other numerous times in a year and developed a history.

While expansion has been good in that it's brought the major leagues to far more cities and their fans, I'm not sure it's a better product than it was from 1920 to 1960.

The biggest change that I believe is responsible for the lower averages is the evolution of the starting and relief pitching. No longer are starting pitchers expected to pitch complete games. In the past starters went the full nine, sometimes even extra innings. Later teams started using “closers” and saves became a key stat.
Now you have specialists that are used in the 6th, 7th, and 8th innings prior to the closer being called upon. Those pitchers are defined by how they perform in high or low leverage situations.
This change has impacted ( lowered) batting averages because a batter may typically see a different pitcher every at bat.

I’ve often wondered what would a teams success be if they had no starters but simply rolled out a new pitcher each inning.
Each day they rotate the 9 pitchers to be used. Ideally 9 pitch that day with 4 on a rest day. Use a revolving pitching schedule.

[Wildwoodcoach]

We have a very important series with the Cubs to start the week and I see that Mlodzinski is still in the rotation to pitch on Wednesday. What else do they need to see that proves Mlodzinski is suited as a long reliever not a starter. Meanwhile you have Bubba Chandler on fire with an ERA of barely over 1
We need to win this series and we can’t afford to use up the bullpen with the Padres coming into town.

Speaking of the bullpen I think it is a bunch of BS saying certain pitchers are not available even when they may only have thrown 10 pitches or less the day before. These relief pitchers are way too babied.
Look up some of the great relievers of the past: Mike Marshall, Bruce Suter, Dennis Eckersley, Goose Gossage, Tekulve.
They would come in everytime there was a save opportunity regardless if they had pitched the day or 2 before.

Not only that, but Marshall, Sutter, Gossage and Tekulve usually pitched multiple innings. These day few relievers exceed 75 innings. Gossage pitched 133 for the Bucs in 1977. Teke was routinely between 90 and 135 innings. Sutter was generally at 90-105 and went as high as 122 innings. In 1974, Marshall pitched 208 innings in relief after pitching 179 the previous year. Eckersley was the original "closer" in 1988 being reserved generally for 9th inning save opportunities and that formula was copied by every team and religiously adhered to ever since whether it makes sense or not.

Teams are overprotective of their pitchers' arms now for fear of injury. And yet we seem to see more pitchers getting injured now more than ever.

Very good observation