Jones

[markson33]

Jones is not a top quality 1b by any means, but I don't see him as being as bad as some on this board seem to think.  He had a bad July and a truly horrific August.  Two bad months do not make him a horrible player.

He could be a good #6 hitter behind a new 1b and Alvarez, but is misplaced as a #4.  This team could be significantly better with a top quality #4 hitter.

Paul Konerko anyone?

[SammyKhalifa]

Jones is not a top quality 1b by any means, but I don't see him as being as bad as some on this board seem to think.  He had a bad July and a truly horrific August.  Two bad months do not make him a horrible player.

He could be a good #6 hitter behind a new 1b and Alvarez, but is misplaced as a #4.  This team could be significantly better with a top quality #4 hitter.

Paul Konerko anyone?

No, I don't think he's horrible.  He's kind of killing us at cleanup though.

[dave3BA]

Oh my god anyone who thinks Adam LaRoche is more productive than GJ is insane.  GJ has never batted under .200, he can run, he's one big huge guy with lots more physical ability than AL will ever have.  I believe his biggest problem is the manager not putting him in a position to succeed.  There's some lefty's he just  needs to sit it out.  The guy still has a chance to be very good.  After watching AL for years, I am so glad we have GJ, at least he hustles.

skinny

This sounds awfully familiar...

[epoc]

Jones is not a top quality 1b by any means, but I don't see him as being as bad as some on this board seem to think.  He had a bad July and a truly horrific August.  Two bad months do not make him a horrible player.

He could be a good #6 hitter behind a new 1b and Alvarez, but is misplaced as a #4.  This team could be significantly better with a top quality #4 hitter.

Paul Konerko anyone?

It's a bit disingenuous to say "Two bad months do not make [Jones] a horrible player," when in actuality his entire career, before June of 2009, was bad. It's more apt to say that three good months do not make Jones a good player.

Also, I don't understand how Jones could be in the top 1/3 of baseball in OPS when his OPS+ is 95, but top 1/3 or not, he's below league average (this year).

[scrapiron]

I was really hoping this thread had something new and interesting to add to an old discussion.  I guess I was wrong to hope.  Same rehash of same points. 

[81omar]

I was really hoping this thread had something new and interesting to add to an old discussion.  I guess I was wrong to hope.  Same rehash of same points. 

   Well, good job adding to it!  What was the point of your post? Just wanted to tell everyone they disappointed you?

   People please try harder,you have failed scrap

[scrapiron]

I was really hoping this thread had something new and interesting to add to an old discussion.  I guess I was wrong to hope.  Same rehash of same points. 

   Well, good job adding to it!  What was the point of your post? Just wanted to tell everyone they disappointed you?

   People please try harder,you have failed scrap

Thanks for the words of encouragement to the posters.  I doubt they will have any affect and there will be another thread next week on Jones that says the same things again.  Perhaps I'm just to diligent in reading posts here and get tired of the exact same discussions.  Maybe I should read fewer posts to avoid redundancy.

[81omar]

I was really hoping this thread had something new and interesting to add to an old discussion.  I guess I was wrong to hope.  Same rehash of same points. 

   Well, good job adding to it!  What was the point of your post? Just wanted to tell everyone they disappointed you?

   People please try harder,you have failed scrap

Thanks for the words of encouragement to the posters.  I doubt they will have any affect and there will be another thread next week on Jones that says the same things again.  Perhaps I'm just to diligent in reading posts here and get tired of the exact same discussions.  Maybe I should read fewer posts to avoid redundancy.

    Or just take your own advice you had for everyone else.  I dont see the reasoning behind telling people you don't like a thread that had 18 posts in one day so it was obviously a discussion people cared enough about to still discuss. I dont think many people here care about what causes boredom in your world

[SpeedyG]

It is kind of odd that Jones had his most prolific power-hitting (HR wise) month this year in August when he hit for a .144 AVG.  Kind of a strange month, especially considering his strikeout and walk numbers remained relatively constant compared to his good months.

I (like others have said) think that Jones' best bet for the future is as a bench/platoon player who starts in RF and 1B against righties and sits against all lefties.  The Pirates have a few options to consider for a platoon partner with Jones (Steve Pearce and Lastings Milledge, depending on the position).

As for speculating whether or not Brandon Moss or Steve Pearce could duplicate Jones' modest performance, I think it is simple.  Unless they can improve upon Jones' numbers or provide a significant upgrade in defense, then they should be on the bench in favor of Jones. 

It doesn't make sense to say that this guy or that guy could put up the same numbers.  We already have those numbers.  We aren't going to get anything from trading Jones and he is a cheap player, so we might as well play him.

I, for one, don't see any evidence that suggests that Brandon Moss is an upgrade to Jones.  It would have been nice to see what Steve Pearce could do this year.

[gnarburger]

Jones, unfortunately, is not a good baseball player. Sure, he's cheap, but that's about all you can say for him. Batting him in the middle of the order shows how far the Pirates have to go to be a good team.

I can make a pretty definitive argument that Jones is in top thrid of all players offensively.  If he's top 40 in HRs and top 100 in OPS - out of 360 position players - he's in the top third.

Top third of the league offensively with the league minimum salary is not a bad player.

But if you're comparing him to all position players, you're including C, 2B, SS, and CF which typically get less production than the corner positions. Of course Jones is going to compare more favorably when all those guys are in the mix. The only important comparison is to 1B and RF. I really doubt he comes anywhere close to being in the top third of players that play his position. So I agree with Cobra. The only really good thing you can say about him is that he's cheap.

Looking at 1B, there are 26 players who qualify for the batting title.  Jones ranks 25th in OPS.  The only qualified player who has a lower OPS than Jones is Jorge Cantu, who has only played about 1/3 of his games at 1B (the rest at 3B).

In RF there are 25 qualifying players.  Jones ranks 22nd in OPS.  The players behind him are Cody Ross (who has played more CF than right), Ben Zobrist (who plays all over the field), and Jeff Francoeur (who is terrible).

[Traco Bucco]

I was really hoping this thread had something new and interesting to add to an old discussion.  I guess I was wrong to hope.  Same rehash of same points. 

   Well, good job adding to it!  What was the point of your post? Just wanted to tell everyone they disappointed you?

   People please try harder,you have failed scrap

Thanks for the words of encouragement to the posters.  I doubt they will have any affect and there will be another thread next week on Jones that says the same things again.  Perhaps I'm just to diligent in reading posts here and get tired of the exact same discussions.  Maybe I should read fewer posts to avoid redundancy.

    Or just take your own advice you had for everyone else.  I dont see the reasoning behind telling people you don't like a thread that had 18 posts in one day so it was obviously a discussion people cared enough about to still discuss. I dont think many people here care about what causes boredom in your world

The writings will continue until morale improves!

[Xiga]

Looking at 1B, there are 26 players who qualify for the batting title.  Jones ranks 25th in OPS.  The only qualified player who has a lower OPS than Jones is Jorge Cantu, who has only played about 1/3 of his games at 1B (the rest at 3B).

In RF there are 25 qualifying players.  Jones ranks 22nd in OPS.  The players behind him are Cody Ross (who has played more CF than right), Ben Zobrist (who plays all over the field), and Jeff Francoeur (who is terrible).

This is why I can't get behind the idea that oh, Jones is just fine, he's not the problem here. I would say those numbers make him a big part of the problem on the offense. Statistically, if you compare him to other regular 1B or RF, he's one of the worst in the league. To have one of the worst at the league at a premium offensive position is a big problem. And it's especially a problem because he's more likely to get worse than better since he's not young anymore. Maybe they aren't going to upgrade there this winter - I'd hope that they at least attempt to find better, which honestly shouldn't be hard - but they have to get a lot better from 1B if they're ever going to be any good. Down the road, we can reasonably expect Cutch and Pedro to be better, and Walker and Tabata to at least continue to produce where they're at. Eventually, hopefully soon, we'll be at a point where internal improvement on offense is minimal so where else do you improve?

This winter I'd try to find someone who can play 1B that can top a .725 OPS (should be very easy) and at least make Jones earn his playing time back. Going into next year with Jones still a prominent member of the lineup is already part of an early surrender.

[gnarburger]

Jones is not a top quality 1b by any means, but I don't see him as being as bad as some on this board seem to think.  He had a bad July and a truly horrific August.  Two bad months do not make him a horrible player.

He could be a good #6 hitter behind a new 1b and Alvarez, but is misplaced as a #4.  This team could be significantly better with a top quality #4 hitter.

Paul Konerko anyone?

It's a bit disingenuous to say "Two bad months do not make [Jones] a horrible player," when in actuality his entire career, before June of 2009, was bad. It's more apt to say that three good months do not make Jones a good player.

Also, I don't understand how Jones could be in the top 1/3 of baseball in OPS when his OPS+ is 95, but top 1/3 or not, he's below league average (this year).

Jones isn't in the top 1/3 of the league in OPS.  Not even close to it.  There are 154 players who qualify for the batting title this year.  Of those 154 players, Jones ranks 114th in OPS.  He barely misses being in the bottom 1/4.  Right in between Alberto Callaspo and Yuniesky Betancourt.  Expanding the group to anyone with 300 PA this year Jones ranks tied for 157th.  Funny enough 158th would be the cutoff line for the bottom third of the league.

[epoc]

The impression I get from this thread is that most people aren't thinking seriously about Alvarez moving to first next season. I'm curious about that. It's clear that Alvarez's defense is bad enough that he's going to have to move eventually, and it's also clear that we need a power-hitting 1B. It also just so happens that we have a good 3B (Walker) who can take over for Alvarez. And finally, in the last few offseasons 2B have been the easiest thing to find and get. Johnson, Hudson, and Polanco all signed cheaply last year. So did F Lopez, and we got Iwamura very cheaply, though those two didn't work out as well as expected. All things considered, I think moving Alvarez to 1B for next year is exactly what the Pirates should do.

[bradlej31]

I erred in saying that he was top 1/3 in OPS, I thought since he was top 1/3 in Total Bases he'd be top 1/3 in OPS. My bad.

I obviously like the guy and liked his approach early on.   I think he got really impatient during July and August.  It seems like teams weren't giving him much to hit and he just started swinging at junk.  

I do give him a lot of credit for Walker's success in the 3 hole.   Teams don't pitch around Walker and I think Jones is the main reason.   I wish Jones got the type of pitches Walker sees, but that's not going to happen until we get a stick behind him.

I also disagree with the move Pedro to 1B thought.   Pedro hasn't proven anything to me with the stick.  His bat is fine for third, but until he hits better he can't take up a spot that has to produce more.