Jones

[bradlej31]

My thought de jour:   

Garrett Jones is tied for 39th in HRs.   He's is tied for 72nd in Total Bases (which I think is a good quick stat).

Of all the 71 players ahead of him in Total Bases exactly 3 players (Austin Jackson, Carlos Gonzalez and Gabby Sanchez) make less money then him.   Only 3 others are even in the same ballpark as far as salary and years of control.

Jones isn't great.   But he's serviceable.  More importantly he's cheap..... and will be for awhile.    He probably should be batting in the 5 hole instead of 3rd or 4th, but these are the Pirates.  He really hasn't had anyone behind him to protect him (.... wouldn't a RH power bat be nice?).  He plays 2 positions and his defense isn't bad. 

I still consider him an asset.    Cutch, Tabata, Alvarez and Walker probably all rank above him as far as the future on the Bucs, however I'd still consider him a nice piece moving forward.

[mouse]

One of the problems with having a stadium with unusual dimensions is that the team gets distorted. For us, it means a lot of left-handed hitters and not so many right handed ones. I thought Pearce might be able to fill that role. But yes, a RH power bat would be nice.

[CentralCABucsFan]

As is typical with this message board, and most message boards, people tend to bash a guy in his slumps and jump on his bandwagon during his hot streaks.

He is a decent player overall.  His numbers would be much better if Russell had even an inkling of a clue about matchups/rest.  I'm fine with him on the Pirates, but I wouldn't consider him a cornerstone of the future.  I feel the same about Milledge, Cedeno and Snyder.  If we found someone better while those guys are still cheap, we would have some excellent packup players.

We need RH power, but not pull power.  Nady and Bay hit homers to dead center and right center and were able to put up decent numbers.  Jayson Werth would be great for this team.

[Xiga]

My two problems/concerns with Jones:

1) He might lack MLB experience, but he's not young. He's almost 30, and that's an age where hitters tend to start dropping off. For that, I can't view him as a long-term piece.

2) He may be the best run producer the Pirates have, but he's not good. He's a below average 1B or RF offensively. This is a problem because those are positions where teams usually get some of their best production. It's going to be hard to improve this offense if you've got a below average bat in a premium offensive position.

I don't think he's a useless player. He's just badly miscast here and it's a potentially dangerous perception of him. He's the new Nate McLouth, who a lot of people seemed to view on the level of a Jason Bay or Brian Giles simply because he was the best we had here, even though he was no where close to the type of hitter those guys were. I really hope they don't look at Jones as an unmovable piece in the lineup just because he's going to have ~25 HR and ~90 RBI.

On a good team, Jones starts only against RHP and hits seventh. On a horrendous team like the Pirates, he bats clean-up everyday. It's only a matter of time before Pedro claims that spot but hitting in the middle of the order in general is too much for him. He'd be a decent platoon bat, but that's it. We can't be viewing him as an important part of this team. They need to aim higher than Garrett Jones. The irony that everyone hated a much more productive Adam LaRoche has been brought up in the past...

[A. Senter]

He'd be a decent platoon bat, but that's it.

That's pretty much it.  He had a great half season last year, but I think most of us had a pretty strong feeling that he would not produce like that over a full season.

If the organization does not make a significant upgrade in the off season, I'd be in favor of trying out a platoon at first base of Jones and Pearce.  I know Pearce hasn't done much in his time with the Pirates, but he does hit lefties very well and he was off to a nice start this season before the injury.  I know he only had a small amount of at bats, so we don't know if he would have kept hitting or not, but I'd be interested to see what he and Jones could do together in a platoon.

[epoc]

As is typical with this message board, and most message boards, people tend to bash a guy in his slumps and jump on his bandwagon during his hot streaks.

When a slump lasts for a guy's whole career, it's not a slump.

Also, total bases are okay, but as with any counting stat, they'll overrate a guy like Jones who hits at the top of the order and plays every day. Among players with at least 300 PA this season, Jones is 135th in SLG%. He's probably not as bad as he's played this year, but he's now .259/.327/.463 for his major league career, which of course includes the only three months of his life that he's ever been a decent player. At 29, he's not getting any better.

My own personal hope is that Jones does not have a place on the Pirates next year, because Alvarez has moved to first and Bowker is the left-handed part of a RF platoon.

[skinnyhorse]

He'd be a decent platoon bat, but that's it.

That's pretty much it.  He had a great half season last year, but I think most of us had a pretty strong feeling that he would not produce like that over a full season.

If the organization does not make a significant upgrade in the off season, I'd be in favor of trying out a platoon at first base of Jones and Pearce.  I know Pearce hasn't done much in his time with the Pirates, but he does hit lefties very well and he was off to a nice start this season before the injury.  I know he only had a small amount of at bats, so we don't know if he would have kept hitting or not, but I'd be interested to see what he and Jones could do together in a platoon.

Oh my god anyone who thinks Adam LaRoche is more productive than GJ is insane.  GJ has never batted under .200, he can run, he's one big huge guy with lots more physical ability than AL will ever have.  I believe his biggest problem is the manager not putting him in a position to succeed.  There's some lefty's he just  needs to sit it out.  The guy still has a chance to be very good.  After watching AL for years, I am so glad we have GJ, at least he hustles.

skinny

[Xiga]

It's simply a fact that LaRoche is a more productive player than Garrett Jones. LaRoche has a higher batting average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage than Jones this season. He has more HR, 2B, 3B, and RBI in less ABs. He has a better walk rate. The only thing he's done worse than Jones is strikeout more. LaRoche has a higher batting average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage for his career. LaRoche put up OPS of .803 and .841 in his two full seasons here. He was .770 for the time he was here last year but was .843 for the season. Jones did put up a .939 OPS in 300+ ABs last year but he's down to .725 over this full season so far, which is worse than LaRoche has ever done.

Jones has never batted under .200? He just hit .144 in August. He's hit .193 with .635 OPS since the All-Star break. The only difference between this slump and the slumps LaRoche went through is the timing.

EDIT: LaRoche also doesn't present the extreme lefty/righty splits that Jones has, meaning he's a better option as an everyday player to boot. For all the talk about how Jones would be great in a platoon, he's got a .779 OPS against RHP this year. It's not like he's crushing right handers. He's below average against them too.

[Cobra]

Jones, unfortunately, is not a good baseball player. Sure, he's cheap, but that's about all you can say for him. Batting him in the middle of the order shows how far the Pirates have to go to be a good team.

[SammyKhalifa]

He'd be a decent platoon bat, but that's it.

That's pretty much it.  He had a great half season last year, but I think most of us had a pretty strong feeling that he would not produce like that over a full season.

If the organization does not make a significant upgrade in the off season, I'd be in favor of trying out a platoon at first base of Jones and Pearce.  I know Pearce hasn't done much in his time with the Pirates, but he does hit lefties very well and he was off to a nice start this season before the injury.  I know he only had a small amount of at bats, so we don't know if he would have kept hitting or not, but I'd be interested to see what he and Jones could do together in a platoon.

Oh my god anyone who thinks Adam LaRoche is more productive than GJ is insane.  GJ has never batted under .200, he can run, he's one big huge guy with lots more physical ability than AL will ever have.  I believe his biggest problem is the manager not putting him in a position to succeed.  There's some lefty's he just  needs to sit it out.  The guy still has a chance to be very good.  After watching AL for years, I am so glad we have GJ, at least he hustles.

skinny

Wait, so when Laroche doesn't do well, it's because he stinks.  When Jones doesn't do well, it must be the manager's fault?

[VaPirate]

I don't know if Jones is any good or not.  What I do know is that there is NO ONE in the upper system that is nearly as good as Jones.  So he will play and he is one of the most important members of the current team.  Maybe that makes the Pirates a very bad team; well, they are. 

I also know that of all the needs this team has, it is unlikely and unrealistic that the FO is going to bring in BOTH a new RF and a new 1st.  So, GIJ is almost certainly a lock to be in the everyday lineup for at least one more year.  I have zero problem with that - there are greater needs on this team.

One last point - other than Jose and Neil, not one player that i can think of met there preseason expectations which offered the chance for the Pirates to be an improved team.  All have slipped.  Cutch is the biggest disappointment this year, and the most critical.  His offense, defense, and even his running have not been what any of us expected.  So there is a lot more to this than the Pirates 1st base playing below league average.

[Xiga]

I don't know if Jones is any good or not.  What I do know is that there is NO ONE in the upper system that is nearly as good as Jones.

I'm not high at all on Pearce, Moss or Bowker but I'd bet that any of them could put up similar numbers to what Jones will do next year. Jones is nothing special. A 1B or corner outfielder who can put up a .725 OPS is nothing special and not hard to find or replace.

I also know that of all the needs this team has, it is unlikely and unrealistic that the FO is going to bring in BOTH a new RF and a new 1st.  So, GIJ is almost certainly a lock to be in the everyday lineup for at least one more year.  I have zero problem with that - there are greater needs on this team.

Personally, I disagree that there are many larger needs. They have four young players that can be expected to improve over the next couple seasons in Cutch, Pedro, Tabata, and Walker. I'd argue that both Cedeno and Snyder are closer to being average for their positions than Jones. I'd say that starting pitching is the greatest area of need but right behind that is the lack of production from 1B and RF, of which Jones is a big part. I do agree, however, that Jones is likely to be back in a prominent role next year. I just hope they are smart enough to platoon him at the very least.

One last point - other than Jose and Neil, not one player that i can think of met there preseason expectations which offered the chance for the Pirates to be an improved team.  All have slipped.  Cutch is the biggest disappointment this year, and the most critical.  His offense, defense, and even his running have not been what any of us expected.  So there is a lot more to this than the Pirates 1st base playing below league average.

Like I said, though, with Cutch you're talking about a young player that's likely to improve. In fact, Cutch was having a very good season before he hurt his shoulder. Cutch also has an OPS that's about 60 points higher in a less premium offensive position. I agree that he's been disappointing to but there are different levels. He's still been pretty decent for his position. Jones hasn't been close to decent this season, and again I'd say it's a big part of this team's problem. They're not going to displace the young players at 2B, 3B, LF, and CF. They have somewhat adequate fill-ins at SS and C, and you're unlikely to find much better on the market this winter. If they're to improve this offense, it's gotta be at 1B and/or RF.

[bradlej31]

Jones, unfortunately, is not a good baseball player. Sure, he's cheap, but that's about all you can say for him. Batting him in the middle of the order shows how far the Pirates have to go to be a good team.

I can make a pretty definitive argument that Jones is in top thrid of all players offensively.  If he's top 40 in HRs and top 100 in OPS - out of 360 position players - he's in the top third.

Top third of the league offensively with the league minimum salary is not a bad player.

[Xiga]

Jones, unfortunately, is not a good baseball player. Sure, he's cheap, but that's about all you can say for him. Batting him in the middle of the order shows how far the Pirates have to go to be a good team.

I can make a pretty definitive argument that Jones is in top thrid of all players offensively.  If he's top 40 in HRs and top 100 in OPS - out of 360 position players - he's in the top third.

Top third of the league offensively with the league minimum salary is not a bad player.

But if you're comparing him to all position players, you're including C, 2B, SS, and CF which typically get less production than the corner positions. Of course Jones is going to compare more favorably when all those guys are in the mix. The only important comparison is to 1B and RF. I really doubt he comes anywhere close to being in the top third of players that play his position. So I agree with Cobra. The only really good thing you can say about him is that he's cheap.

[Dogknot3]

I like Jones.  I don't think is or will be a super star, but he is a quality player.  If you read his stats, you will think he is one of the worse 1B in the NL.  But if you watch him play, you will understand why his stats are down.

Jones needs some protection.  He wouldn't be pitched down and away so much.  Jones needs to start driving the ball again instead of just making contact.  

Adam LaRoche is batting .270 with more HRs.  Who here would rather have LaRoche?  LaRoche was run out of this town big time as so much was expected form him.  I am willing to give Jones more time as this is his first year as a full time player in the majors.