Here's a reason Aki was better to sign than Kelly Johnson

[7Springs]

If people want to call me to task for being negative about Neil Walker, then by all means do so.  I see the numbers, the lack of success, the overwhelming lack of plate discipline, and I recognize that he has stopped improving, likely regressed.  Then I add that together with his conspiracy theory argument that he provided last year, and I see a potential problem for those that still look at him as part of the future.

Is that a negative view? I suppose it is as negative as his play on the field.

Regardless I respect your opinion, I disagree, I don't think younger and cheaper automatically equates to rebuilding. I value having some balance to the rebuilding (especially the D to support young pitchers), not putting square pegs in round holes, cutting your losses with certain players, or moving them if they have more value to another org than your own (i.e. Bixler).

Why not then just play Vazquez at second and put that 5 mil towards another actually good, and not injured player?  Why not put it towards the draft?  Why should we accept a 35mil payroll?

[RJReynolds]

Bottom line is that Aki is here now so I'll hope upon hope that he does well enough to net us some kind of decent return come the trade deadline. I'd still like to see Laroche get some work there this year after Alvarez comes up (assuming he does). Unless Laroche goes nuts with the bat, I don't see him netting us a fantastic return in trade. I'd rather see if he can play 2B adequately enough so that he is the type of player Iwamura is now...just with more team control and far more power.

RJR

[GoBucs21]

If people want to call me to task for being negative about Neil Walker, then by all means do so.  I see the numbers, the lack of success, the overwhelming lack of plate discipline, and I recognize that he has stopped improving, likely regressed.  Then I add that together with his conspiracy theory argument that he provided last year, and I see a potential problem for those that still look at him as part of the future.

Is that a negative view? I suppose it is as negative as his play on the field.

Regardless I respect your opinion, I disagree, I don't think younger and cheaper automatically equates to rebuilding. I value having some balance to the rebuilding (especially the D to support young pitchers), not putting square pegs in round holes, cutting your losses with certain players, or moving them if they have more value to another org than your own (i.e. Bixler).

You do what I do.  No you aren't negative.  I was really referring to B&aB who went off on me with his comments on negativity.

We have different perspectives, I respect that.  I am willing to sacrifice the short term for the long term, other don't want to do that.  Its just different points of view.

[scrapiron]

GB,  I agree with you on Walker.  I am still very positive about what he might be able to do as a ML player. I think he has improved, albeit slowly, over the last two years in AAA.  However, I would not put him under the pressure of being the starting 2B for the bucs to begin the season.  I think you agree with that.  So where you really lose me in your argument against Iwamura is that you say that rather than paying for a vet, however long he is here, you would play a young guy that would be part of the future foundation of the team.  Great thought, but who is that player?  You have also said you would use Young.  Well Young is by no means young and he is never going to be a part of the foundation.  Neither is Crosby.  While I think Crosby would be fine defensively, they got Iwamura before they ever even gave a thought to signing Crosby or any free agent.  Because it was a trade, Iwamura was a sure thing whereas relying on being able to sign any worthwhile free agent was a big risk.  And any other free agent they could have signed would not fit that youthful foundation block you mentioned.  So it seems that your only real objection to Iwamura is the money.  When this team was willing to spend more money to keep an injury prone 2B with declining abilities, I just can't get upset about paying Iwamura.

[GoBucs21]

GB,  I agree with you on Walker.  I am still very positive about what he might be able to do as a ML player. I think he has improved, albeit slowly, over the last two years in AAA.  However, I would not put him under the pressure of being the starting 2B for the bucs to begin the season.  I think you agree with that.  So where you really lose me in your argument against Iwamura is that you say that rather than paying for a vet, however long he is here, you would play a young guy that would be part of the future foundation of the team.  Great thought, but who is that player?  You have also said you would use Young.  Well Young is by no means young and he is never going to be a part of the foundation.  Neither is Crosby.  While I think Crosby would be fine defensively, they got Iwamura before they ever even gave a thought to signing Crosby or any free agent.  Because it was a trade, Iwamura was a sure thing whereas relying on being able to sign any worthwhile free agent was a big risk.  And any other free agent they could have signed would not fit that youthful foundation block you mentioned.  So it seems that your only real objection to Iwamura is the money.  When this team was willing to spend more money to keep an injury prone 2B with declining abilities, I just can't get upset about paying Iwamura.

I've said it a few times actually.  I don't think Young is a long term answer.  IMO, he's very short term stop gap.

I would use Young at second for part of the season, until Alvarez comes up.  When that happens, I would move Laroche to second.  Again, the Rays moved Iwamura from second to third, and Zobrist from a utility role to FT second baseman.  It can be done.  That is my Plan A.

Plan B would be if both Laroche and Young fail, Walker (starting in 2011) gets a shot at second.  He makes or breaks himself in 2011.  If he fails, he moves to a role player or maybe back to catching.  It doesn't really matter.

If all fails, I think Chase D'Arnaud will be ready as the next option in 2012.

[Boston Corbett]

he's dealt for a prospect that's his near term replacement? In other words, like Sanchez last year, if Iwamura is dealt to a contender for a prospect of the caliber of Alderson

Completely unfounded and baseless speculation.  What makes anyone think he could be traded for a legitimate prospect when history proves his trade value is for a marginal reliever?  This is a perfect example of one refusing to look at facts and history while wearing rose colored glasses.

Good grief.........

[Bloop and a Blast]

he's dealt for a prospect that's his near term replacement? In other words, like Sanchez last year, if Iwamura is dealt to a contender for a prospect of the caliber of Alderson

Completely unfounded and baseless speculation.  What makes anyone think he could be traded for a legitimate prospect when history proves his trade value is for a marginal reliever?  This is a perfect example of one refusing to look at facts and history while wearing rose colored glasses.

Good grief.........

It wasn't an opinion to begin with. It was a question about how one would feel about the acquisition of Iwamura in a multitude of different scenarios. I've expressed the desire to extend Iwamura for a year, with a second year team option, if Iwamura has a good 2010 campaign. I don't want him dealt, rather, I want him to bridge the gap (successfully) until the long term answer at 2b arrives. If that means it's LaRoche, or a player who is dealt for in trading Iwamura or another player, then so be it. My point is that there is a dollar value that can be extracted here, both in performance and prospect value.

[81omar]

he's dealt for a prospect that's his near term replacement? In other words, like Sanchez last year, if Iwamura is dealt to a contender for a prospect of the caliber of Alderson

Completely unfounded and baseless speculation.  What makes anyone think he could be traded for a legitimate prospect when history proves his trade value is for a marginal reliever?  This is a perfect example of one refusing to look at facts and history while wearing rose colored glasses.

Good grief.........

     His offseason trade value was based on the fact he may not be offered arbitration and people knew that ahead of time,plus health concerns. If hes healthy and playing well and a team needs a 2b for a playoff run it cant be compared to how we were able to acquire him,its two totally different situations eventhough it involves the same player

[7Springs]

he's dealt for a prospect that's his near term replacement? In other words, like Sanchez last year, if Iwamura is dealt to a contender for a prospect of the caliber of Alderson

Completely unfounded and baseless speculation.  What makes anyone think he could be traded for a legitimate prospect when history proves his trade value is for a marginal reliever?  This is a perfect example of one refusing to look at facts and history while wearing rose colored glasses.

Good grief.........

     His offseason trade value was based on the fact he may not be offered arbitration and people knew that ahead of time,plus health concerns. If hes healthy and playing well and a team needs a 2b for a playoff run it cant be compared to how we were able to acquire him,its two totally different situations eventhough it involves the same player

But it will cost 5 mil or whatever portion we are on the hook for.  Why not just use that 5 mil and put it up top of the draft budget and sign more picks that may have the chance of helping someday than hoping to God against all odds that Iwamura puts togther an uninjured , productive year to begin with.

[81omar]

   I was commenting on trade value only which is what Boston posted about

[Bloop and a Blast]

If people want to call me to task for being negative about Neil Walker, then by all means do so.  I see the numbers, the lack of success, the overwhelming lack of plate discipline, and I recognize that he has stopped improving, likely regressed.  Then I add that together with his conspiracy theory argument that he provided last year, and I see a potential problem for those that still look at him as part of the future.

Is that a negative view? I suppose it is as negative as his play on the field.

Regardless I respect your opinion, I disagree, I don't think younger and cheaper automatically equates to rebuilding. I value having some balance to the rebuilding (especially the D to support young pitchers), not putting square pegs in round holes, cutting your losses with certain players, or moving them if they have more value to another org than your own (i.e. Bixler).

You do what I do.  No you aren't negative.  I was really referring to B&aB who went off on me with his comments on negativity.

We have different perspectives, I respect that.  I am willing to sacrifice the short term for the long term, other don't want to do that.  Its just different points of view.

Just because I "went off on you", doesn't mean that I can't handle a different perspective. You talk about making sacrifices for the short term. You mean like the sacrifices the fans have been making for 17 years?
Why do you think your team, the Nationals, have spent $60M+ for a bunch of players that won't be there in two years? It's because the paying fans deserve the best product you can afford to put on the field, without sacrificing your future ability to continue the rebuild. You say that at least the Nats are spending on the draft and investing in the rebuild. They spent 75% of their total draft expenditure (2008-09) on two players, Strasburg and Storen. Because they spent $16.1M on two players, you hold that model up as a rebuild.
Do the Pirates fans deserve anything less than the Nationals' fans? Has Iwamura, Church, Dotel and Donnelly blocked the prospects that will be part of the rebuild, or prohibited the Pirates from spending record amounts in the draft on high risk, over-slot signings? That's my problem with your stance on this. It can't be all about today and it can't be all about 3-5 years from now. You have to hope that you get to where you want to be in 3 years and you have to have a product today that resembles an MLB product. The trick is to do it without blocking the future and not hindering your ability to financially execute the long term plan. For some reason, the Pirates have screwed it all up on both ends by acquiring Iwamura? That's the problem I have with your stance on this. It's fine for your team to do it (by spending $60M+), because the spent a ton on ONE player in the draft, but the Pirates have screwed their shot at pulling off their plan because they plugged a couple holes on a $36M team.

[CAfan]

7Springs,

It is still speculation, but pretty widely believed (particularly outside of this board) that MLB is interfering with the ability to spend huge draft budgets, and 2) that they are coming after teams who drop their ML payroll too low.  The ability to automatically sink 5 mil anywhere else might not be as easy as it seems.  Latin America, or Far East might be a place, but I think, other than overpaying blue chips the ability to increase draft budget is pretty narrow.  If the draft could just be bought the Red Sox and Yankees would have been doing it.  MLB apparently interfered with several signings this past year or our draft budget would have been even higher.

[GoBucs21]

If people want to call me to task for being negative about Neil Walker, then by all means do so.  I see the numbers, the lack of success, the overwhelming lack of plate discipline, and I recognize that he has stopped improving, likely regressed.  Then I add that together with his conspiracy theory argument that he provided last year, and I see a potential problem for those that still look at him as part of the future.

Is that a negative view? I suppose it is as negative as his play on the field.

Regardless I respect your opinion, I disagree, I don't think younger and cheaper automatically equates to rebuilding. I value having some balance to the rebuilding (especially the D to support young pitchers), not putting square pegs in round holes, cutting your losses with certain players, or moving them if they have more value to another org than your own (i.e. Bixler).

You do what I do.  No you aren't negative.  I was really referring to B&aB who went off on me with his comments on negativity.

We have different perspectives, I respect that.  I am willing to sacrifice the short term for the long term, other don't want to do that.  Its just different points of view.

Just because I "went off on you", doesn't mean that I can't handle a different perspective. You talk about making sacrifices for the short term. You mean like the sacrifices the fans have been making for 17 years?
Why do you think your team, the Nationals, have spent $60M+ for a bunch of players that won't be there in two years? It's because the paying fans deserve the best product you can afford to put on the field, without sacrificing your future ability to continue the rebuild. You say that at least the Nats are spending on the draft and investing in the rebuild. They spent 75% of their total draft expenditure (2008-09) on two players, Strasburg and Storen. Because they spent $16.1M on two players, you hold that model up as a rebuild.
Do the Pirates fans deserve anything less than the Nationals' fans? Has Iwamura, Church, Dotel and Donnelly blocked the prospects that will be part of the rebuild, or prohibited the Pirates from spending record amounts in the draft on high risk, over-slot signings? That's my problem with your stance on this. It can't be all about today and it can't be all about 3-5 years from now. You have to hope that you get to where you want to be in 3 years and you have to have a product today that resembles an MLB product. The trick is to do it without blocking the future and not hindering your ability to financially execute the long term plan. For some reason, the Pirates have screwed it all up on both ends by acquiring Iwamura? That's the problem I have with your stance on this. It's fine for your team to do it (by spending $60M+), because the spent a ton on ONE player in the draft, but the Pirates have screwed their shot at pulling off their plan because they plugged a couple holes on a $36M team.

Corrections:
The Nationals are not "my" team.  The Pirates are.  I like the Nationals but that's the extent of it.

Having spoken to Mr Rizzo on a couple of occasions, which I'm sure you haven't, I can state you are very wrong about why they signed Marquis, Wang, IRod, et al.  Wang and Marquis were signed because they didn't want to go with an under 26 year old pitching staff.  IRod was signed because of health concerns with Flores.  (You can correct yourself at any time.)  I'm sure you will disagree even though you haven't been in the same area code as Rizzo.

One more time, I never said it was fine for the Nationals to do it.  In fact,  I said just the opposite.  I don't like any of the signings the Nationals made for exactly the same reason I don't like the Pirates signings.  You ignore that just to argue.

Other thoughts:
Pirate fans deserve the truth.  This team is going nowhere in the standings this year.  The focus needs to be on player development and the future.  Players like Iwamura neither make the team significantly better and get it no closer to the major league product they deserve.

I never said the recently signed vets were blocking anyway.  I want the money going to vets to be spent elsewhere.  That's it.

I know why you've decided to be such a jerk here.  You think you are among like thinkers and have found courage in the company, unlike another board we both write on.  Your attacks mean nothing to me and detract from any point you make.  I've agreed to disagree with others and they seem OK with that.  You on the other hand have a problem.  I have an opinion, I have posted it, and I've done so without your vitriol.

[GoBucs21]

7Springs,

It is still speculation, but pretty widely believed (particularly outside of this board) that MLB is interfering with the ability to spend huge draft budgets, and 2) that they are coming after teams who drop their ML payroll too low.  The ability to automatically sink 5 mil anywhere else might not be as easy as it seems.  Latin America, or Far East might be a place, but I think, other than overpaying blue chips the ability to increase draft budget is pretty narrow.  If the draft could just be bought the Red Sox and Yankees would have been doing it.  MLB apparently interfered with several signings this past year or our draft budget would have been even higher.

I agree about draft spending.  The best place to spend talent acquisition money is on international free agents.  As it relates to spending on them, I prefer to spread the wealth.  Signing as many good players as you can rather than focusing on the one or two best players.

[scrapiron]

But it will cost 5 mil or whatever portion we are on the hook for.  Why not just use that 5 mil and put it up top of the draft budget and sign more picks that may have the chance of helping someday than hoping to God against all odds that Iwamura puts togther an uninjured , productive year to begin with.

This is such a popular thing to say, and has been refuted over and over again.  The Pirates budgets do not work that way.  Perhaps the money could be left available for a special signing like they had attempted with the Latin player I won't name here.  But we have been told over and over that the budgets are separate.  Of course they don't have to be, but that is the way we are informed that this club works.  Not to mention the fact that there is a sort of consensus ceiling on draft budgets as to what provides the best return on the money.  If you don't believe that, they why don't the big money clubs spend many more millions on the draft than the lower income clubs?  I'm no economist, but there must be a point of diminishing returns.  

That being said, what if they did put that money into draft picks?  How much of that money will end up being wasted because the players never pan out?  No one knows so you just put more of your funds at risk by using them in the draft, and in addition you have put a lesser team on the ML playing field which is what keeps fans interested in the club.  Iwamura fills a need at this point in time on the major league club.  That is why they traded for him, whether he is here for the full year, half the year because of trade (at which point money may be recouped) or signed for longer term.